Q: If you could only use one word other than love, holiness, surrender or revival to describe your vision of the church, what would it be?
A: Giving. I believe when the church develops a spirit of giving, through sacrifice, those other four words will be present. And I am not talking about a Sunday morning offering. I am speaking of the individual. When a follower of Jesus is operating in love, holiness and surrender, then giving to others will be a natural response. And I also believe that church bodies need to operate from a giving spirit.
Q: So you believe that the church is lacking in their giving?
A: Yes. Most people in this country, regardless of their source of income, receives anywhere from 25 to 100 times more than the average person on this planet. Compared to the rest of the world, we are disgustingly wealthy. I have spent time being homeless, yet during that time I was wealthier than 53% of the world’s population. I honestly believe that it’s either a paralyzing mentality that we don’t have enough so we give nothing at all, or a genuine lack of love, that prevents people from giving. I have had people say to me, “If I ever win the lottery, I am going to open a soup kitchen.” My typical response is, “In the meantime, buy a can of soup and give it to someone who could use it.”
Q: Do you consider yourself to be missions minded?
A: A lot of people and or churches today refer to themselves as “missions minded.” It’s pretty vogue to be such. It can range from giving a certain dollar amount per month to an overseas mission trip, typically within their own denomination, to sponsoring a mission’s trip. None of that is particularly wrong, but I would hardly qualify it as “missions minded.” I consider myself to be “on a mission” and that simply means that I do not put any qualifiers on where I go or how I serve. I am not so much “missions minded” as “mission focused.” I am striving primarily to be the church described in the Bible”
Q: What do you mean when you say “primarily to be the church described in the Bible”?
A: Ultimately, I believe our objective is to reconcile people with God through the Sacrifice of Christ. The Church in some places is called to minister to “widows and orphans”, as well as to “rescue the perishing.” And I totally agree with that. But also, in the 25th Chapter of Matthew, beginning around verse 34, Jesus says that the people who will inherit the Kingdom are those who “feed the hungry, give the thirsty a drink, shelter strangers, clothe the naked, comfort the sick and encourage prisoners.” I believe that all believers are called to do this. I do not necessarily have an issue with other activities the Church is involved in, as long as their ultimate goal is to reach the lost, and to encourage the body to do the things I just mentioned. The Bible states that “faith without action is dead.” I think we have gotten way off track in many areas. It is going to take work to regain our focus, but I believe it is possible. The Church has some pretty good arguments to “justify” their various programs, positions and plans. Ultimately God will decide the validity behind them.
Q: There seems to be a lot “church bashing” going on today. Much of it comes from within the Body itself, especially among Pastors. You have been accused of that yourself. How do you respond to this?
A: I realize that some of the statements I make may come across as someone who is guilty of “church bashing.” It bothers me when my mouth does a lousy job of revealing my heart. It happens. The truth is, I am passionately in love with the church. It has taken me a long time to accept that God has called me to be a pastor. Part of that hesitation was a reluctance to be “guilty by association.” That may sound a bit harsh, but people tend to get lumped together, especially when they are labeled. But the truth is, I am a pastor, and as such I am attempting to present a church that is representative of Christ. I am relying solely on Scripture, and getting back to the basics, so to speak. This is a mission God has called me to.
Q: Obviously there are problems within the Church. How do you recommend that we begin to address the church’s problems?
A: For one, we need to quit giving people excuses and/or reasons not to believe in God. Many people say that it’s not God they have a problem with, but organized religion. If the church actually responded in the way we were called to, I don’t believe people would be so inclined to say that. If the church was fully committed to what Christ called us to do, then people would have to be more honest and say, “I don’t believe in God.” The first step is for us to look at how the Bible calls us to live our lives. We tend to compare our Spiritual lives by the people around us, who tend to be “like” us. We must address our incorrect view of God, and as a result, ourselves. Before we can really look at what is wrong and take steps to correct it, we must first address “why” we are this way. I believe it’s because overall, we have an incorrect view of God. We see Him as all loving, which is true, but because we only see Him in this way, we are content with just fitting Him into our lives.
Q: Why do you think so many Christians blame the church for their problems?
A: When we are not living according to how God has called us to, it’s much easier to place the blame elsewhere. And it’s not just a mentality we find strictly in the church. People tend to place the blame on their problems on anything and everything but themselves. “I have emotional problems.” “It’s my parents fault.” “My spouse is the blame.”etc… The answer is ultimately relying on the Holy Spirit to effect any legitimate change in our lives. If we have the Holy Spirit in us, which if you are saved you do, then we have the capability to live how God has called us to. Sadly though, we tend to take the easy out and blame others. And again, I believe the answer lies in gaining an understanding of who God is.
Q: An understanding of who God is?
A: That’s a good first step. I believe we take God’s love for granted. Imagine the Creator of the universe being in love with you. This absolutely blows me away. He doesn’t need you or me. And add to that the fact that Jesus came to literally die for us; I can’t imagine how anyone could not be humbled by that. But somehow, I think we have departed from that somewhat and in our minds, God has simply become this being that lives in Heaven. But He says, “I love you. I treasure you. I am willing to give you everything that I am. I long for the day when you will be with me for eternity.” Yet we tend to do just enough to get by and hope we don’t make Him angry. I believe that some people truly do not understand just how much God wants a personal and passionate relationship with us. So I believe the first step in understanding who God is comes with the realization of just how much He loves us.
Q Why do you believe people have such little understanding of who God is?
A: One reason is because people tend to rely on the preacher to make God real to them. As a result, they are taught very little about who He is, but are delivered a “what can God do for me” sermon week after week. There needs to be a genuine desire to know Him within the individual. After a person is assured that they are not going to hell, then they really have nothing else they desire to know. They stop inquiring, searching and seeking. The church in this country seems to be so focused on numbers; they tend to leave God out. Perhaps if they discover too much about Him, then more will be expected. I don’t know. But the truth is, we need to dig deeper. We need to discover the truth of God. We need an honest personal relationship with Him. Then we can model Him in our lives and in the process, draw others to Him.
Q: Do you believe it is possible to take the Bible too literally?
A: Absolutely not. I believe a person who refuses to take the Bible literally has either been influenced by others to not do so, or has not reconciled within themselves if they believe any of it at all. They need to look into their own heart and make the decision on their own. This covers a lot of ground in respect to getting people to think for themselves. I strongly encourage people to do so. Don’t take my word for it; search the Scriptures and seek God to reveal His Word to your heart. When you get alone with God and His Word, then His amazing Truth will come alive. Over time, you will not only take the Bible literally, but you will be thankful for it.
Q: Do you believe that there is a certain amount of fear that may come with taking the Bible literally?
A: In some respects I believe that we have developed a mindset that causes us to read Scripture, or hear a message without even considering a response. In too many cases, sermons have become little more than entertainment. And if some vague Biblical truth slips its way out, then that’s good enough. However, if we are truly reading or hearing the Word and do nothing with it, then we are deceived. I preach quite a bit on Matthew 25 where we are called to minister to the poor. But it seems that even that passage seems optional in the minds of many church people. When God says “feed the hungry” then we have two choices; “Yes, I will” or “No, I won’t.” There is no middle ground. Would we actually say to God, “I refuse to shelter a stranger?” Probably not. But we do so by our inaction everyday. We basically refuse to obey God. A person who takes His Word literally would not, with good conscience, do that. When we take His Word literally, we will apply it.
Q: There are many people who claim that the church has become “lukewarm” as stated in Revelation 3. Do you agree with this view?
A: To a point. I believe that there are many people in the church that fit the definition of lukewarm; neither hot nor cold. I believe that this is an extremely dangerous spot to be in. In fact, according to Revelation, lukewarm people will be spit out of God’s mouth. That does not even sound like someone who is even saved to me. I know that is a pretty bold thing to state; questioning ones salvation will certainly not win you a popularity contest. However, the Bible clearly teaches that a person who says they love God but does not obey Him is a liar. Are we perfect? Not in our flesh. Will we sin? Yes, but we need to repent when we do. I do not believe that I have, or ever will be able to do anything to earn my salvation. It is totally by grace that we are saved. However, if we truly have the Holy Spirit in us, we will be producing fruit. So do I believe there is a “lukewarm” church? No. What I do believe is that in many ways the church has died. Much like the church in Sardis in Revelation 3.
Q: The “dead” church of Sardis?
A: Yes. Sardis is a church that had an “appearance” of life and even a “reputation” for being alive. Yet Jesus said it was dead. It is the only church of the seven addressed in Revelation 2 and 3 that absolutely nothing good was said about it.
Q: How does the church come back to life?
A: It’s a process. Jesus told the church in Sardis it needed to “wake up.” That is definitely the starting point. It starts with each individual and requires a surrender that leads to revival. One thing I believe is that the church needs to “rebel” against the status-quo that has basically killed off much of its purpose. I addressing this rebellious concept in a book I am currently working on entitled “Rebellious Love.”
Q: “Rebellious Love”?
A: Yes. Among other things, Jesus was a rebel. And He IS love. I believe that if we truly start loving the way He did, in the eyes of many, we will appear rebellious. Imagine standing on a platform in your local tavern and preaching the Gospel. I know it can be done, I’ve done it. Imagine attending church somewhere other than where you “normally” attend next Sunday. Or holding VBS in your front yard. I believe that God is calling us to love without the limitations that have been put on us by religion. And to do so, may seem quite rebellious.
Joe Johnson is a writer, teacher, vagabond evangelist and the founder of Rebellious Love Ministries. Through his work with various outreach ministries he serves addicts, homeless and youth. He also ministers to youth at Central Christian Center in Joplin, Missouri. He is a sought after speaker, but has limited availability due to his outreach activities.
Joe lives in Southwest Missouri with his wife Vanessa, who is a worship leader and youth minister, as well as their four children.